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  • Darkcrusade's picture
    Darkcrusade 5 years 38 weeks ago
    Vox Dei?
    Page Jim Davies
    Remember this was a people who had ,by this time, witnessed the miseries and plagues which the LORD God had afflicted the nation of Egypt. Later on when the Lord paved a way across the Red sea and destroyed Pharaoh's army,the people supposedly: the people feared the LORD, and believed the LORD, and his servant Moses. Ex 14:31 EGYPT STILL IN THE SLAVE That's what they said,but they didn't really believe him. Moses was able to take the slave out of Egypt,but he could not take Egypt out of the slave.They were only three days into the wilderness without water when: Exd 15:24 And the people murmured against Moses, saying, What shall we drink? Moses appealed to the Lord and the Lord provided clean water.Again, two months and fifteen days into the wilderness the people murmured against Moses: Exd 16:2 And the whole congregation of the children of Israel murmured against Moses and Aaron in the wilderness: Exd 16:3 And the children of Israel said unto them, Would to God we had died by the hand of the LORD in the land of Egypt, when we sat by the flesh pots, [and] when we did eat bread to the full; for ye have brought us forth into this wilderness, to kill this whole assembly with hunger. Apparently the Egyptians,although hard nosed bureaucrats (taskmasters),they took good care of the Israelites. It appears that the Egyptians apparently understood the principal, ''feed them and you can herd them.'' But later on when the Lord fed them manna they couldn't follow His rules.He told them to gather bread for six days but not on the seventh. They went to gather bread on the seventh day,and: Exd 16:28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws? It seems as though the Israelites were only contented when their bellies were full of what they wanted and when they had plenty to drink. They had more faith in the King's system (Babylon's) which provided for the basic necessities of life than they had faith in the Lord. Every time things started getting little rough they murmured against Moses. Shortly after the bread was provided they again wanted for the water: Exd 17:3 And the people thirsted there for water; and the people murmured against Moses, and said, Wherefore [is] this [that] thou hast brought us up out of Egypt, to kill us and our children and our cattle with thirst? As a result God brought forth water from a Rock. It is interesting that all the Israelites witnessed the plagues upon Egypt ,the parting of the Red sea, the destruction of Pharaoh's army,and they had even been fed and watered directly from the hands of God. Yet even after witnessing God's power,all of the above murmurings happened within just three months of their departure from Egypt. They had been obeying the laws of Egypt for over two hundred years and they became tired of freedom (God's laws) in less than three months. It was much more convenient to be a good slave in Egypt obeying Pharaoh's laws than a freeman obeying God's laws in the wilderness. It is just like the mentality in this century that says welfare is good and it is better to be red than dead. SEEKING A NEW MASTER When the children of Isreal had been in the wilderness for three months they arrived at Mt. Sinai. The people heard and accepted God's covenant,and when God spoke to the people, "They trembled and stood afar off,"(Ex 20:18) and asked Moses to get the Lord to speak through him. If God wouldn't let them have Pharaoh as a master perhaps God would allow them to have Moses as a master.However,while Moses was on the mount the people became restless and said unto Aron; Ex 32:1 make us gods, which shall go before us; Amazing! Only four months into the wilderness and they still could not accept the greatness and power of the Lord,and they made and worshipped idols. The Egyptian bureacrats had schooled the Isrealites very well. They most have known once a slave always a slave. Shortly after the first day of the second month of the second year after they left Egypt they were still complaining: Num 11:4-5 And the mixt multitude that [was] among them fell a lusting: and the children of Israel also wept again, and said, Who shall give us flesh to eat? Num 11:5 We remember the fish, which we did eat in Egypt freely; the cucumbers, and the melons, and the leeks, and the onions, and the garlick: The mixed multitude that was among them was a negative influence upon the Israelites,constantly reminding them of the customs and good foods that were in Egypt.But God said if it is meat you want,it is meat you you shall get.In fact he said they would eat it. Num 11:20 until it come out at your nostrils, and it be loathsome unto you: because that ye have despised the LORD which [is] among you, and have wept before him, saying, Why came we forth out of Egypt? They would not accept the perfect food from God.God's manna had to be complete nourishment,and therefore a perfect food source. When they rejected it,They rejected the LORD. The LAST CHANCE Later when spies were sent into the land of Canaan to report on the people and the fruit of the land,they returned and many were afraid: Num 13:32 And they gave the children of Israel an evil report of the land which they had spied out, saying, ........and all the people whom we saw in it [are] men of [great] stature. Num 13:33...........'' and we were like grasshoppers in our own sight, and so we were in their sight." As a result of these reports the people wept and again murmured against Moses and Aaron , saying; Num 14:2,4 ...... "If only we had died in the land of Egypt! Or if only we had died in this wilderness! Would it not be better for us to return to Egypt?" So they said to one another, "Let us select a captain and return to Egypt." This was the last straw as far as God was concerned. He told Moses: Num 14:22 because all these men who have seen My glory and the signs which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have put Me to the test now these ten times, and have not heeded My voice, It was than that God told Moses to turn back to the wilderness and that all (save two) who were twenty years of age or older would die in the wilderness during the next 40 years , and He would bring only the young back to the promised land. It bears repeating that Moses brought the slave out of Egypt but could not take Egypt out of the slave. During the years to come God brought a plague against some,and some were consumed by fire and an earthquake,and still they did not harken unto the LORD.Another time they were again without water: Num 20:5 And why have you made us come up out of Egypt, to bring us to this evil place? It [is] not a place of grain or figs or vines or pomegranates; nor [is] there any water to drink." The problem was they were still good slaves of Pharaoh and not true servants of God .They remembered the flesh pots the leeks,onions,and coffins of Egypt and did not harken unto the LORD. and continued to murmur against Moses and the LORD. Num 21:5 And the people spoke against God and against Moses: "Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For [there is] no food and no water, and our soul loathes this worthless bread." This time God sent fiery serpents to bite them.Nothing God did satisfied them. The murmurings of the people continued,even into the promised land,until the future generations of those who died in the wilderness finally achieved what their forefathers could not do --- they finally became slave to a new earthly master named Saul,who would make plenty of laws for them to obey. Even though they were warned what would happen to them if they had a king,they insisted.....God provided. GOVERNMENTS ARE BABYLON Throughout the centuries little has changed.Next came the great world empires mentioned in Daniel: the Babylonia empire, Medo-persia ,Greece, and the Roman empire. Than came the numerous small kingdoms of clay and iron which have plagued mankind into the 20th century. Beasts are Kings ,Kingdoms, or governments. In the Exodus Pharaoh was a king or the head of the government and he had a bureaucracy to assist in the enforcement of the state's laws.The same was true for Alexander,for the Caesars ,and is true for the 20th century heads of government and their bureaucracies.The names and structures of government have changed and they have become more sophisticated but they still function as slave masters to their subjects.there are only degrees of slavery as there is no freedom in the world today.As long as government enforces it's will on the people,the people are slaves of the government.
  • Suverans2's picture
    Suverans2 5 years 38 weeks ago
    Vox Dei?
    Page Jim Davies
    The real trick was, for me, taking Egypt out of the slave. "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind..."
  • Darkcrusade's picture
    Darkcrusade 5 years 38 weeks ago
    Natural Law
    Web link Don Stacy
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIGTc2W_zWA Creating "robots" without free will would have been meaningless. God wanted his children to choose good, not evil. Without knowledge of good and evil, there was no sin. Conscience means "with knowledge". We all know what is evil, and choose to do it anyway, and so it is sin, separating us from an eternity of blessed fellowship with a righteous and holy God. And so... evil began in Paradise, bringing death into the world. To compound the problem, around the 450th year of Adam's life, the Fallen Ones began to convey forbidden knowledge and evil practices to mankind, and married the daughters of men. This very nearly resulted in the extinction of the human race, and culminated in the Great Flood. But that didn't end the problem, since the Bible tells us that there was more mingling with the Fallen ones after the Flood, producing more giants. The seed mingling theme runs deep in the Bible. The Serpent may have had something to do with the birth of Cain, Abel's brother. The wording "she bare again" indicates (in my mind at least) the possibility that the boys were not both sired by Adam. Cain was a prototype of the Antichrist. Eve thought Cain was the Redeemer, and gave Abel a name that means '"useless". Abraham got in trouble with God by allowing the Pharaoh to take Sarai into his harem. God intervened and protected her, but later in life Abram took the Egyptian handmaid Hagar and the resultant mingling produced Ishmael and centuries of conflict. Moses' wife came from among the Egyptians... more mingling of seed? You see, the Angels that sinned had polluted the bloodlines of various races, and the bloodline of Jesus Christ had to be from the untainted seed of Adam, not mingled with demon seed. The mingling of the Fallen with the daughters of men filled the Earth with violence and bloodshed, and threatened to prevent the coming of the Redeemer, either by polluting the gene pool or killing off His forebears in the bloodline of Mary. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PQnqpiz_Tc When I think of "aliens" and demons, I think of the Fallen Ones and their part-human, part-angelic offspring. I think the demons are disembodied spirits of demon seed beings that died in the Great Flood. The "armies of the aliens" that were turned to flight through faith (Hebrews 11:34) were heavily influenced by the demon seed giants, offspring of the Fallen Ones and demi-gods mingling with humans. Because of the extreme violence, cruelty, perversion, and Satanic religious practices of their culture, God ordered Joshua to kill them and destroy everything. Israel and the bloodline of the coming Messiah were nearly destroyed on numerous occasions through corruption of their religious practices by association with these mingled people. http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docid=3402325689850240729
  • Darkcrusade's picture
    Darkcrusade 5 years 38 weeks ago
    Vox Dei?
    Page Jim Davies
    The Egyptians were smart.Notice that the Egyptians paid the Israelites wages and than later took part of it back? Some of this was probably tribute and the rest in food and other necessities which had to be bought at the king's supermarkets. The situation is reminiscent of the song about a man who ''owed his soul to the company store''. All that he made in wages went back to the company as it was the only place he could buy food and supplies and obtain credit when he ran out of wages. Moses was later able to take the slave out of Egypt but he never could take Egypt out of the slave. The Israelites finally arrived at the position of being completely dependant upon government. (It is historically proving fact that whenever you can create a dependency,you obtain control.)Over a period of time those who didn't cooperate were probably levied an additional tribute (tax penalty) and sometimes given a few lashes for good measure or put to death as an example to others.In the 20th century we are too civilized to punish by lashes and death for civil offenses,we simply put tax protesters in prison. The relationship between the Israelites and Pharaoh's department of human Resources,Internal Revenue Service,Transportation,and Commerce was such that just to survive the people had to cooperate (obey all the laws) or else.However, they must have been satisfied with their condition to a great extant at best, or too dependant upon the state at worst ,as there is no recorded uprising of the Israelites who were still more in number,and mightier, then the Egyptians. THE LEVITES-----FREEMEN OF ISREAL It stands to reason that the Levites would have been the ones to warn the people of Israel and that they ,like our brethren today,WOULD NOT HEAR. Interstingly enough ,according to the book of Jasher ,the Levities saw through the Egyptians' scam from the beginning. But the children of Levi were not employed in the work with their brethren of Israel, from the beginning unto the day of their going forth from Egypt. For all the children of Levi knew that the Egyptians had spoken all these words with deceit to the Israelites, therefore the children of Levi refrained from approaching to the work with their brethren. And the Egyptians did not direct their attention to make the children of Levi work afterward, since they had not been with their brethren at the beginning, therefore the Egyptians left them alone. Jasher 65:32-34 If this is true,than for some reason, since the levites never volunteered ,they were not forced to enter the system even though the Egyptians ,by than, apparently had the power to force them into the same conditions as the rest of the tribes. The levities would probably have rebelled because they had not been gradually introduced to voluntary servitude ,whereas in the words of past Supreme Court Justice ,Wm O. Douglas; "those (Israelites) who already walk submissively will say there is no cause for alarm" THE CONDITIONING TOTAL Moses recognized that the Israelites had been conditioned unto slavery when two Israelites confronted him the day after he killed the Egyptian Taskmaster.The Israelites were as much afraid for themselves because of what Moses had done as Moses himself.So ingrained and accepted was their status of voluntary slavery that they not only feared retribution upon themselves for their own acts, but also feared retribution against themselves for the acts of others. Forty years latter when Moses returned to Egypt and confronted Pharaoh,demandind that he release the Israelites,Pharaoh simply added to the Israelites' burdens by making them gather their own straw.The Israelites understood the message:They had better cooperate (obey all the laws) and be good slaves to the state or Pharaoh would increase their burdens. The Israelites confronted Moses saying: Ex 5:21 And they said unto them, The LORD look upon you, and judge; because ye have made our savour to be abhorred in the eyes of Pharaoh, and in the eyes of his servants, to put a sword in their hand to slay us. The king increased the production quoteas and tribute to the p[point where no one could perform to the king's satisfaction,which gave the taskmasters the reason they needed to oppress the Israelites even unto death. So ingrained and accustomed to being good slaves (obeying the laws of Babylon) were the Israelites that when Moses tried to tell them what God said they wouldn't even listen to him. Ex 6:9 And Moses spake so unto the children of Israel: but they hearkened not unto Moses for anguish of spirit, and for cruel bondage. TAKING THE SLAVE OUT OF EGYPT They were more afraid of not obeying the laws of Egypt (Babylon) and the administrative bureaucrats than they had faith in the word of God. What they told Moses was ''Go away and leave us alone. It is better to serve the Egyptians than to die." We know this to be true because the Scripture records that after they left Egypt Pharaoh followed and: Ex 14:10 And when Pharaoh drew nigh, the children of Israel lifted up their eyes, and, behold, the Egyptians marched after them; and they were sore afraid: and the children of Israel cried out unto the LORD. Exd 14:11 And they said unto Moses, Because [there were] no graves in Egypt, hast thou taken us away to die in the wilderness? wherefore hast thou dealt thus with us, to carry us forth out of Egypt? Exd 14:12 [Is] not this the word that we did tell thee in Egypt, saying, Let us alone, that we may serve the Egyptians? For [it had been] better for us to serve the Egyptians, than that we should die in the wilderness.
  • Darkcrusade's picture
    Darkcrusade 5 years 38 weeks ago
    Vox Dei?
    Page Jim Davies
    Rev 18:4 Come forth, my people, out of her that ye have no fellowship with her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 2Cr 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean [thing]; and I will receive you, This passage is generally perceived as being a conclusion based upon the previous passages where Paul discusses the difference btween wicked and evil people,or of the righteous and the unrighteous.However,this is a partial quote from Isaiah which states: Isa 52:11 Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch no unclean [thing]; go ye out of the midst of her; be ye clean, that bear the vessels of the LORD. Isaiah wrote this in 712b.c.,after the captivity of the northern kingdom (house of Israel)which was deported into Assyria during the years 745-721 b.c. (2 kings17). eight years latter,in 713-714 b.c. (2kings18:13),Assyria also captured the majority of the southern kingdom (two tribes) and also deported them into Assyria to the north.Than about 100 years latter,after Assyria had fallen,Babylon invaded the city of Jerusalem,and took the inhabitants to the city to Babylon. This means that Isaiah would be writing to the Israelites in Assyria telling them to flee,or he could be writing prophetically to the inhabitants of Jerusalem,who were latter taken into captivity. Paul adds a little to what Isaiah had to say with the words : ''Be ye separate.'' Coming outof Babylon can be viewed as a physical departure from a place and a relocation to another place,or it can be viewed as simply being separate or different from those in Babylon.The bible and history confirms both as being true. Those who were in Assyria generally fled out of that land and migrated to the north and west.,while those in Babylon were unable to flee but were admonished to remain separate,which they did to some extant. Jeremiah also records: Jer 50:8 Remove out of the midst of Babylon, and go forth out of the land of the Chaldean's, and be as the he goats before the flocks. Jer 51:6 Flee out of the midst of Babylon, and deliver every man his soul: be not cut off in her iniquity; for this [is] the time of the LORD'S vengeance; he will render unto her a recompense. Jer 51:45 My people, go ye out of the midst of her, and deliver ye every man his soul from the fierce anger of the LORD. Jeremiah is writing in about 595 b.c which would be in the middle of the Babylonian captivity. A reading of the entire chapters reveals that Jeremiah is addressing BOTH the House of Israel and the house of Judah,as well as those taken captive to Babylon. A reading of Ezra and Nehemiah reveals that the former inhabitants of Jerusalem left Babylon with the permission of the King. There was no fleeing from Babylon at this time as this was a planned and orderly return to the city of Jerusalem. THE fleeing from Babylon was left to those in Babylonian and Assyrian captivity who would escape or flee when those nations were being devoured by other nations. "BABYLON DEFINED'' Strong's concordance defines ''Babylon'' as: confusion 1) to mix, mingle, confuse, confound a) (Qal) 1) to mingle, confuse 2) to mix Websters dictonary,1st. ed., 1828, Vol 1, p. defines Bablylonian as: ''2. Like the language of Babel; mixed ;confused.'' It is interesting that both Strong's and Webster's show in there definitions that Babylon is ''a type of tyranny,''therefore it can be concluded that any form of tyranny is a babylonian system. Certainly this would fit not only the Assyrian and Babylonian government,buy also the Egyptian government from which Israel had fled in an earlier day.It is to this period of Israel's history that we must turn to see how our people reacted to Babylonin type systems. ISREAL IN EGYPT Historically,the best example of satisfied slavery comes from the book of Exodus. Jacob (israel)had moved the clan to Egypt (their ''Babylon'') to be with Joseph,where they prospered: Exd 1:7 And the children of Israel were fruitful, and increased abundantly, and multiplied, and waxed exceeding mighty; and the land was filled with them. They were sojourners and strangers in a foreign land and things were going along real fine until a new king came upon the scene who didn't know joseph. This new king said: Exd 1:9 And he said unto his people, Behold, the people of the children of Israel [are] more and mightier than we: Therefore the king appointed taskmasters (bureaucrats) over them and set them to work building cities.The new king had them making bricks,worked them in the fields,and employed them as servants.In short they became slaves of Pharaoh (the state.) The interesting point of this story is that even though the Isrealites were ''more and mightier'' than the Egyptians, none of the Isrealites seemed upset enough to do anything about it. The Isrealites were basically a people who were dependent upon the land. They worked the land to grow crops that fed the animals. They literally lived off the land. If the Isrealites became warlike and took over the government ,the king and his bureacrats would have to fight their own wars,go to work,and produce their own food. FABRICATING SLAVERY There had to be a soulution to the problem. The king understood that war wasn't a good solution when he stated they were more and ''mightier than we''. Any attempt to enforce out-and-out slavery would bring on a rebellion.Therefore Pharaoh said: Exd 1:10 Come let us deal wisely with them; lest they multiply, and in the event of war, they also join themselves to those that hate us,and fight against us,and depart out of the land. Dealing ''wisely'' or ''cunningly'' with them would be a program of not imposing total tyranny immediatly,but rather to cunningly coerce them into voluntary servitude over a peroid of time. First of all he set up an educational system for the youth of Isreal. Than he hired some Isrealites to work in the palace and other government agencies in 9-5 jobs with weekends off and paid vacations. They would no longer have to work in the fields dirtying their hands from dawn to dark. He hired them as chariot (bus) drivers,construction workers(building cities) manufacturing plants (making bricks), vine growers(pressing grapes),etc. paying good wages. Having that program well underway,Pharaoh started increaseing their burdens. He applied a tribute(tax)to all wages(income tax) and land (property tax),and than began slowly increasing the tax until many could not afford to pay it.These lands were foreclosed upon and placed under the management of the taskmasters (p.c.a, F.H.A.etc.) Now the king again owned the land and employed the Israelites to work on his farms and paid them a wage,which he also taxed,therby increasing their burdens and oppressing them. A similar story is recorded in the book of Jasher, recording that Pharaoh told the elders how they would subdue the Isrealites by deceit. He ordered that cities be built and that they were to invite the Isrealites to assist in building the cities as fortifications to protct Egypt and the children of Isreal from attack. Perhaps this was the first treaty organisation- IETO (Isreal/Egypt Treaty Organisation)The bait was the protection of the country and the daily wages. The elders of Egypt then went to the children of Isreal and said; ''Whosoever of you from all Egypt and from the children of Israel will come to build with us, he shall have his daily wages given by the king, as his command is unto us.''the book of Jasher 65:19'' The Isrelites were not forced,they were invited to assist and were offered daily wages for thier services,and they were to be treated as equals with the Egyptians.The Isrealites swallowed the bait hook line and sinker,and voulantarily left the Land of Goshen to become wage earners. ''And all the servants of Pharaoh and his princes came at first with deceit to build with all Israel as daily hired laborers, and they gave to Israel their daily hire at the beginning. And the servants of Pharaoh built with all Israel, and were employed in that work with Israel for a month. And at the end of the month, all the servants of Pharaoh began to withdraw secretly from the people of Israel daily. And Israel went on with the work at that time, but they then received their daily hire, because some of the men of Egypt were yet carrying on the work with Israel at that time; therefore the Egyptians gave Israel their hire in those days, in order that they, the Egyptians their fellow-workmen, might also take the pay for their labor. And at the end of a year and four months all the Egyptians had withdrawn from the children of Israel, so that the children of Israel were left alone engaged in the work. And after all the Egyptians had withdrawn from the children of Israel they returned and became oppressors and officers over them, and some of them stood over the children of Israel as task masters, to receive from them all that they gave them for the pay of their labor. And the Egyptians did in this manner to the children of Israel day by day, in order to afflict in their work.''The book of Jasher 65:21-27
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 5 years 38 weeks ago Web link Jad Davis
    Establishing privation property is always a Trail of Tears.
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 5 years 38 weeks ago Page Westernerd
    Psychologically projecting again today?
  • Lawrence M. Ludlow's picture
    Lawrence M. Ludlow 5 years 38 weeks ago Page Westernerd
    Robert: Yes, the behavior of the trogs at the debate was an indictment of what passes for Christianity in our time. Some time ago, I wrote about the meaning buried in the commonly misunderstood quote on taxation as well. There seems to be a knee-jerk servility reflex these days in far too many Americans. http://www.strike-the-root.com/91/ludlow/ludlow1.html
  • Suverans2's picture
    Suverans2 5 years 38 weeks ago Page Westernerd
    The Sad Truths of Internet Trolls: 1. Trolls enjoy using shock-value statements, [and bald-faced lies], to get angry responses from others. 2. Trolls gain energy by you insulting them. 3. Trolls gain energy when you get angry. 4. Trolls are immune to criticism and logical arguments. True trolls cannot be reasoned with, regardless of how sound your logical argument is. 5. Trolls do not feel remorse like you and me. They have sociopathic tendencies, and accordingly, they delight in other people having hurt feelings. 6. Trolls consider themselves separate from the social order. 7. Trolls do not abide by etiquette or the rules of common courtesy. 8. Trolls consider themselves above social responsibility. 9. The only way to deal with a troll is to ignore him, or take away his ability to post online. gfywi More information can be found here: What Is an Internet 'Troll'? ~ About.com Internet for Beginners
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 5 years 38 weeks ago Page Westernerd
    More equivocating word games, per se, from Suverans2. He says "Although I do not consider myself a 'Christian', per se..." Yet he has also states earlier: "The Holy Scripture is the inexhaustible word of God," and "All of Christianity would come crashing down in a rubble pile if one(1) prophecy of christ were shown to be unfullfilled.The critics have had 2,000 years to no avail." At any rate, consider Christianity a rubble pile, if judged solely by S2's reckoning: "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." ~Matthew 24 It's been WAY longer than a generation. Looks like that bus isn't gonna show up. Neither is your other religio-economic salvationist hope.
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 5 years 38 weeks ago Page Glen Allport
    You get angry? "That whosoever is angry with his brother shall be in danger of judgment... Agree with thine adversary quickly..." ~Jesus verses 25 and 28, chapter 2, The Jefferson Bible Suverans2, are you one of those Convenience Christians like Tammy Faye—whatever it takes to justify serving city-Statism's (civilization's) Mammon (Money?) This is Jesus' Constitutional Gold Standard: "Take ye neither gold, nor silver, nor copper in your purses..." ~Jesus verse 25, chapter 6, The Jefferson Bible
  • Suverans2's picture
    Suverans2 5 years 38 weeks ago Page Westernerd
    "They said that when Ur was the great empire. (about 4,000 years ago,Did he go to gambol?),That was back in the days when people believed that everything was controlled by the whims and fancies of pagan gods. Water-gods, when they felt so disposed, made water flow; sea-gods moved the waves and tides; air-gods controlled the winds; gods whispered in trees, roared in thunder, and brought rain to the fields. Fertility-gods caused seeds to sprout and women to bear children.Gods controlled men just as they controlled all other things. As water ran and winds blew, so men thought and felt and acted as the gods might will." Gods = laws of nature
  • Suverans2's picture
    Suverans2 5 years 38 weeks ago Page Westernerd
    G'day Westernerd, Although I do not consider myself a "Christian", per se, I found myself wanting to stand and cheer for what you presented here today! You, and Jesus[sic], get a 10 star vote from me, because not one in a million have eyes to 'see' what you have written. Thank you.
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 5 years 38 weeks ago Page Westernerd
    The biological family of Hominoidea are known as apes, humans too. At any rate, if you think we're made in the image of God, God is necessarily a Hominoidea ape too. (I suspect Cetaceans have differing opinions.) But does he wear trousers? And which 10 Commandments of Moses do you refer to? Exodus 34 refers to the second set of tables of stone, claiming that the second set contained "the words that were on the first." 1. Thou shalt worship no other god (For the Lord is a jealous god). 2. Thou shalt worship no other god (For the Lord is a jealous god). 3. The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep in the month when the ear is on the corn. 4. All the first-born are mine. [...] 10. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in its mother's milk. Double dose of jealousy. No sauteed lamb. An "amazing," "revolutionary" code of "personal conduct," indeed.
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 5 years 38 weeks ago Page Westernerd
    Jesus preached against the demon engine of city-Statism, agriculture. Not only was he an anarchist, as you've correctly divined, he was an anarcho-primitivist, the only non-contradictory variant of anarchism. Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them: how much more are ye better than the fowls? ~ Jesus verse 40, chapter 4, The Jefferson Bible Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. ~ Jesus verse 23, chapter 11, The Jefferson Bible It's clear that the Jesus character was neither capitalists nor libertarian. ______________________________ Agriculture: Demon Engine of Civilization by John Zerzan http://rewild.info/anthropik/library/zerzan/demon-engine-of-civilization... "Agriculture creates government." ~Richard Manning, Against the Grain, p. 73
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 5 years 38 weeks ago Page Glen Allport
    You're grossly misrepresenting atheists' stated position. The word a-theist itself means absence of theistic belief. You're just trying to drag them down to the True Believer make-believe gutter in which you wallow. Also, I'm not a "so-called" American Indian. White Indians were those who ran from agricultural city-Statism (civilization) to a Non-State society, as documented in the following: Chapter 13. "The White Indians" The Invasion Within The Contest of Cultures in Colonial North America Author: James Axtell Pubished by: Oxford University Press "The White Indians of Colonial America" Author: James Axtell Source: The William and Mary Quarterly, Third Series, Vol. 32, No. 1 (Jan., 1975), pp. 55-88 Published by: Omohundro Institute of Early American History and Culture P.S. Two positives can equal a negative. It's true! Try it out by saying "Yeah, yeah" in the back of a lecture hall.
  • Suverans2's picture
    Suverans2 5 years 38 weeks ago Page Glen Allport
    You see, Darkcrusade, there are those who believe, (because they cannot prove), that there is a First Cause, or a Supreme Being[1], and there are those who believe, (because they cannot prove[2]), that there is no First Cause, or Supreme Being. gfywi And, then, of course, there are those intellectually honest individuals, (IMO), who are agnostic (1870), "...who profess that the existence of a First Cause...[is] not and cannot be known" [Klein] ~ ~ Etymology Online Dictionary ______________________________________________________________________________________ [1] The American Indian, so-called, "believed in a good and Supreme Being [God], and in an Evil Spirit [Devil or Satan], and recognized the existence of inferior good and evil spirits. They believed in a future state of existence, and there were no infidels among them. Superstition [religious beliefs] among swayed them powerfully, and special men, called "medicine-men," were their physicians, priests, and prophets, who, on all occasions, used incantations." [2] Two negatives equals a positive.
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 5 years 38 weeks ago Page Westernerd
    The Apostle Paul was a completely different fellow from that eastern Jesus character, and is the main influence on Western Christianity. He was clearly a butch city-Statist: Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. ~Romans 13:1 And Paul was good with the agricultural city-Statist culture putting food under lock and key and starving people into submission of working for the emergent elite. If any would not work, neither should he eat. ~2 Thessalonians 3:10 TANSTAAFL, as Heinlein called it, even though that has been true for only a single specie, and then, for only 0.1% of human history. In agricultural city-Statism (civilization) you have to work for The Man to pay for food held under lock and key instead of freely hunting and gathering it. Nothing is free for the foraging. Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters... Ephesians 6:5 That city-Statist line suits hierarchical neo-cons, capitalist, and rightwing libertarians rather well. They like to Lord-it-over others. Although libertarians tend to squeal when the tables are turned. At least when it's middle management—the gubbmit—doing the Lording-over. They're cravenly submissive when it's upper management—the business of America is business—doing the Lording-over. P.S. Don't forget Paul was into sacred pederasty. Read Philemon 1:9-11 for an overt Greek pederasty joke that any honest Greek scholar understands clearly. Paul was one sick fellow, as are many of the priestcraft today who follow his example of sexually Lording-it-over "useful" little boys.
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 5 years 38 weeks ago Page Glen Allport
    By definition, atheists are NOT believers. Why do you always attack them with silly semantics, trying to make them into believers like you? Feeling lonely?
  • Suverans2's picture
    Suverans2 5 years 38 weeks ago Page Glen Allport
    G'day Darkcrusade, Well said. However, you may want to rethink your stance on philosophers, i.e. lovers of wisdom. PHILOS'OPHY, n. [L. philosophia; Gr. love, to love, and wisdom.] 1. Literally, the love of wisdom. But in modern acceptation, philosophy is a general term denoting an explanation of the reasons of things; or an investigation of the causes of all phenomena both of mind and of matter. When applied to any particular department of knowledge, it denotes the collection of general laws or principles under which all the subordinate phenomena or facts relating to that subject, are comprehended. Thus, that branch of philosophy which treats of God, &c. is called theology; that which treats of nature, is called physics or natural philosophy; that which treats of man is called logic and ethics, or moral philosophy; that which treats of the mind is called intellectual or mental philosophy, or metaphysics. The objects of philosophy are to ascertain facts or truth, and the causes of things or their phenomena; to enlarge our views of God and his works, and to render our knowledge of both practically useful and subservient to human happiness. True religion and true philosophy must ultimately arrive at the same principle. ~ Webster's 1828 American Dictionary of the English Language Oh, and, prepare yourself for an attack from the atheist believers for daring to use the words "God" and "dei".
  • Darkcrusade's picture
    Darkcrusade 5 years 38 weeks ago Page Westernerd
    An extremely important verse that should never be neglected concerning Jesus:the Christ and the state. Mat 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; Mat 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Mat 4:11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him. The legal maxim of '' a fact is stablished on the testimony of two witnesses'' comes from the Bible. Here is the second authority from Dr.Luke.- Luk 4:5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. Luk 4:6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. Luk 4:7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine. Luk 4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. This evidence points to the fact that all the manmade contrivance of Government is an anti-christ. Men will be ruled by tyrants or governed by God. Mat 22:18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, [ye] hypocrites? Mat 22:19 Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny. Mat 22:20 And he saith unto them, Whose [is] this image and superscription? Mat 22:21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's. Mat 22:22 When they had heard [these words], they marvelled, and left him, and went their way. Whos image is impressed in you? Are you simply a trousered ape? Or are you created by the hand of God, The Imago Dei? Who discovered men are free? No one knows who first made the discovery that men are free. The fragmentary records begin with one person. There is no historical proof that he really existed, but the story holds its own self-evident truth; and for countless generations, it was handed down from father to son. They said that when Ur was the great empire. (about 4,000 years ago,Did he go to gambol?),That was back in the days when people believed that everything was controlled by the whims and fancies of pagan gods. Water-gods, when they felt so disposed, made water flow; sea-gods moved the waves and tides; air-gods controlled the winds; gods whispered in trees, roared in thunder, and brought rain to the fields. Fertility-gods caused seeds to sprout and women to bear children.Gods controlled men just as they controlled allother things. As water ran and winds blew, so men thought and felt and acted as the gods might will. But Abraham denied the existence of all these pagan gods. He insisted that there is only one God-the God of all things, the God who creates and judges. He taught his increasing family that God is Rightness, Reality, and Truth; that man is free and self-controlling and responsible for his own acts; that each person is free to do good or evil, as he may choose, but that any wrong act will result in punishment to the evildoer. Much later another mighty work is performned to extract the hebrews from bondage,and LIVE for FORTY YEARS(to gambol?) in the desert. One wonders how Moses stuck it out. But for 40 years, he kept on telling them that they were free men; that they were responsible for themselves. "Your murmurings are not against us," he told them, "but against the LORD." But slaves are passive. They submit. They obey. And they expect to be fed. They wanted Moses to be their king so that they could hold him responsible and blame him for everything. But Moses turned them down and kept on insisting that they were free, responsible for themselves; that there was no pagan god to control them and be responsible for them; that no man could rule another man. But the children of Israel kept on murmuring, drifting back into idolatry, and sneaking every chance to worship their pagan gods. The Ten Commandments (found in north america> http://www.truthontheweb.org/frcomsto.htm ) Finally, as a last resort, Moses reduced the teachings of Abraham to a written code of moral law. Known as the "Ten Commandments," it stands today as the first and greatest document of individual freedom in the recorded history of man. Each of the Ten Commandments is addressed to the individual as a self-controlling person responsible for his own thoughts, words, and acts. And each of them recognizes liberty and freedom as inherent in the nature of man. The first commandment tells the individual to reject pagan gods and recognize his own worth as a human being, subject to no power but that of the Creator and Judge. The second tells the individual to form no imag- e of abstract rightness, but to direct his reverence toward the divine in truth. The third tells the individual not to speak frivolously of the Creator and Judge. Knowledge of fundamental truth - cause and effect - is of first importance and should I be taken very seriously. The fourth tells the individual to devote some time (one day out of seven) to reflection on the eternal verities. The fifth recognizes the family as the primary human relationship and establishes the parent's authority over the child as the only authority which a child should accept for his own profit. The sixth stresses the sanctity of human life -the individual's right to live, which is a right that must not be violated by any other person. The seventh establishes the principle of contract - the inviolability of promises given by persons to each other and the double sanctity of the mariage contract, which is the basis of the family. The eighth recognizes the individual's right to own property. The ninth recognizes free speech - the individual's control over his own utterances and his responsibility for their truth. The tenth emphasizes again the right of ownership. Not even in thought should a person violate the property rights of another. http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/15_williamson.html The Decalogue of Moses is one of the most amazing statements of truth ever written, but it was too revolutionary to find acceptance in the pagan world of his time; the ancient Israelites wanted a king rather than a code of personal conduct. http://mises.org/daily/5177
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 5 years 38 weeks ago Page Glen Allport
    Freedom is more than a semantics game, Atlas. Freedom is the absence of coercion; you continue attempting to define it otherwise, as means of evading reality. You also continue to evade that simple fact that animals other than humans also demonstrate reason and morality. (See "Rational Animals" (Oxford University Press,) and "Good Natured: The Origins of Right and Wrong in Humans and Other Animals" (Harvard University Press)) And the lame Social Darwinism relating to property is hilarious. Show me any other specie that takes over way more land than it needs to survive, claims ownership of it, and then charges rent to his fellow species, and starves them into submitting to working for him. Really. I don't see squirrels or dolphins renting pieces of the home planet to other squirrels and dolphins. Not even most humans have charged rent to live on the face of the home planet to their fellow species in the last 2 million years but a single culture -- Agricultural City-Statism (civilization.) "In the imago dei?" Now you know why I call your tripe a religio-economic dogma. Can you be honest about it and dispense with the pretext of rationality?
  • Darkcrusade's picture
    Darkcrusade 5 years 38 weeks ago Page Glen Allport
    The only use for philosophers is to argue with other philosophers.It is self evident,i think therefore i am. Self ownership is inherent,a gift of God.Personal souvreignty, Case in point> A robber breaks into your house and threatens you at the point of a gun. Discretion being the better part of valor, you give in and tell him where your valuables are hidden. But you make the decision, and you do the telling. If, instead of a robber, it were a kidnaper after your child, it would be a different story. But in either case, your thoughts and acts are under your own control. Thousands of men and women have suffered torture and even death without speaking a word that their persecutors tried to make them speak. Your freedom of action may be (rights maybe violated)forbidden, restricted, or prevented by force. The robber, kidnaper, or jailer may bind your hands and feet and put a gag in your mouth. But the fact remains that no amount of force can make you act unless you agree -perhaps with hesitation and regret - to do so. This leads to a very important point - in fact, to two important points : 1. Individual freedom is the natural heritage of each living person. 2. Freedom cannot be separated from responsibility. Your natural freedom -your control over your own life energy was born in you along with life itself. It is a part of life itself. No one can give it to you, nor can you give it to someone else. Nor can you hold any other person responsible for your acts. Control simply can't be separated from responsibility; control is responsibility. Insects and animals follow certain patterns of action. Honeybees, for example, all make the same hexagonal cells of wax. Beavers all build the same form of dam, and the same kinds of birds make the same kinds of nests. Generation after generation, they continue to follow their changeless routines - always doing the same things in the same ways. But a man is different because he is a human being; and as a human being, he has the power of reason, the power of imagination, the ability to capitalize on the experiences of the past and the present as bearing on the problems of the future. He has the ability to change himself as well as his environment. He has the ability to progress and to keep on progressing. Plants occupy space and contend with each other for it. Animals defend their possession of places and things. But man has enormous powers, of unknown extent, to make new things and to change old things into new forms. He not only owns property, but he also actually creates property. In the last analysis, a thing is not property unless it is owned; and without ownership, there is little incentive to improve it.> http://mises.org/resources/3498/The-Mainspring-of-Human-Progress http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hQFO6ugWxU&feature=related Three miracles- 1 That there is something,rather than nothing. 2 That there is a habitable planet anywhere in the universe. 3 That there is High-functioning life.In the imago dei.
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 5 years 38 weeks ago Page Alex Schroeder
    "Its" is an objectification, dehumanization, degradation, technique used by abusers and tyrants to demean the worth of the human life of whomever they do not like. It's clear that Suverans2's cheap talk about "natural rights" is a mere debate convenience.
  • AtlasAikido's picture
    AtlasAikido 5 years 38 weeks ago Page Alex Schroeder
    Slave-mentality can consist of any of these elements: * A strong orientation of "I'm right; you (and practically everything and everybody else) are wrong. * A compulsion or obsession to blame others and things or factors outside yourself. * A belief that the world in general is unfair. * A belief that "society" or the world owes you what you need. * The belief that because of "government," "its laws," etc. you can't be free. * An emphasis on changing or "fighting" factors outside yourself ("the system," "the ruling class," "big-daddy-government," etc.). * Submission to real or imagined "external authorities."
  • AtlasAikido's picture
    AtlasAikido 5 years 38 weeks ago Page Alex Schroeder
    I got a little criticism from the media types on this site and I really worry a lot about that! LOL Thanks for letting me know where you stand. I suspected as much given your odd postings to a troll on your threads Gak! It was a bit of a let down to read the rugged individualism articles you write and then to watch you telling a troll what great points it was making. But I let it go then (not now)...
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 5 years 38 weeks ago Page Alex Schroeder
    Atlas, you compound your lies. You stated that many have died from malaria because of a DDT ban. • In reality, DDT was never banned for use against malaria. • In reality, DDT is still being used worldwide today. One thing I've been learning from you is that reality matters little to your type. The hatred of those who actually observe reality was my first hint. I suppose you must think the propaganda you believe above is somehow "axiomatic" and can't be fact-checked.
  • painkilleraz's picture
    painkilleraz 5 years 38 weeks ago Page Alex Schroeder
    In the end what is most unfortunate is that free men engaged regularly in ridiculous jousting over contrary views for the sake of ego promotion. In one line disease,infections, and medicine can be explained in the west with the following. The state cannot save anyone, and can only hinder what may truly work through useless legislation and temporary albeit horrific bandaids.
  • painkilleraz's picture
    painkilleraz 5 years 38 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    Yes, the state =s zero liberty while the lowly individual without the state is liberty.
  • painkilleraz's picture
    painkilleraz 5 years 38 weeks ago Page painkilleraz
    Those are great authors and I will indeed look to their work - as for the other, yes resoundingly and unfortunately, yes :( the state can keep its roads- as what is necessary for free trade without state compulsion will occur with free individuals working together!
  • AtlasAikido's picture
    AtlasAikido 5 years 38 weeks ago Page Alex Schroeder
    Regarding the so-called harmlessness of "lying" trolls...I'd like to thank Dr Ron Paul for bringing this to me attention when he responded to Billy O'Reilly and called him out on his knavish ways. And my thanks to Suverans2 Regarding The Sad Truths of Internet trolls now *amplified*: http://www.strike-the-root.com/entanglement-of-compassion-and-liberty#co... ...#11. It is hardly "easier to think" and explore ideas and trade with others if one has a "troll or vandal" around...It is "submissive"--amongst other things--if one continues to give such by conceding the moral high ground...Laughing at this is of course an option. Feel free to do so as long as that makes sense. #12. Who--once enlightened--would accept let alone entertain the notion that a "troll or vandal" "provides documented evidence that YOU hold contradictions, and that encourages YOU to check your premises". Indeed you do if you let him/her have its way with you....Laughing at this is of course an option as long as that makes sense. #13. "If one wants to strike-at-the-root of increased violence, it can be traced back to one thing DOMESTICATION" ~ This coming from a troll to his victims is how *funny* to you dear reader? #14. Some trolls exhibit the above and when their statements and persona *reflect the politically motivated and government funded education system* backed by tin badges and guns such as cops, universal soldiers and other government agents, they become extremely dangerous. This website summarizes some of the common features of descriptions of the behavior of sociopaths and their power trips. http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html I do not see Regina Rabonovich, nor Rachel Carson nor equivalent agendas (Keynes, Krugman, Friedman, Positivists) as harmless! It would be laughable if not so tragic. I do not underestimate the power of words and ideas thanks to Ayn Rand and Frederick Mann: Slavespeak http://www.buildfreedom.com/tl/tl07a.shtml The University of Iowa pulled down the article that the post above addresses and Bill and Melinda Gates continue to shed tears and fund massive grants to organizations to find a cure while IGNORING the *empirical scientific evidence* of DDT. Much like witnessing a troll using its *empirical scientific evidence* to trying to find a cure for the Free Market, 'Knowledge" and this site. And meanwhile 800,000 children continue to die every year. The equivalent of 7 jumbo jets filled with children crashing every day.
  • AtlasAikido's picture
    AtlasAikido 5 years 38 weeks ago Page Alex Schroeder
    ~DDT was banned according to the very same source cited, "The book's publication[--Rachel Carson's Silent Spring--] was one of the signature events in the birth of the environmental movement, and resulted in a large public outcry that eventually led to DDT being banned in the US in 1972. DDT was subsequently banned for *agricultural use worldwide* under the Stockholm Convention, but its limited use in disease vector control continues to this day..." https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/DDT ~Spraying isolated areas does not cut it! Laws banning widespread spraying is hardly the same as widespread spraying. It is not hard to figure out that limited spraying (vector control) allows unaffected mosquitoes to swarm in. Duh! ~DDT was limited and its use curtailed for unscientific reasons (as it relates to Resistance and Safety) [Alleged] Resistance and the harm both to humans and the environment led many governments to restrict or curtail the use of DDT [even] in vector control *as well as agriculture*. Obviously Vector control is not working for mosquito borne malaria as malaria has increased enormously since the 1970 ban. Vs ~Scientifically proven safety and efficacy of DDT. In 1948, Dr. Paul H. Muller of Switzerland was awarded the Nobel Prize in Medicine because of the medical importance of DDT. In Sri Lanka in 1948, before using DDT, there were 2.8 million cases of malaria. By 1963, because of the widespread spraying usage of DDT, there were ONLY 17 (SEVENTEEN) CASES OF MALARIA!! DDT has never harmed a single human being. *Humans can and have eaten DDT with no ill effects*. But politicians, in spite of empirical and scientific proof of its safety and benefits*, banned it in the mid 1960s. By 1969, cases in Sri Lanka reach 2.5 million again. ~Wide spread spraying works! Of what good is "vector" control when a person walks out of the controlled area and into or thru an agricultural / city area where malaria mosquitoes thrive? Simple physics say that the vector control area was overwhelmed by the surrounding untreated agricultural area. If I put my fist in a pale of water then pull it out, how big is the hole, and how long does it last? ~How important is a human life? It makes sense to hold fast to the scientific method and the free market. That an evidenced troll is lecturing that banning and limited usage (vector control) instituted by Government citing Rachel Carson's Silent Spring IS the same as the documented actual solution--widespread spraying of DDT AND its proven safety to human--tells me that it knows little of this issue nor science other than to obfuscate the obvious. Which it has been doing since it got here.
  • Samarami's picture
    Samarami 5 years 38 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    Of course this fails to address why there are "Obama's" at all. Or "Obamacare" or "Republicare". Liberty will eliminate such atrocities. I don't mean the individual -- who knows, Barack may have some redeeming value as a husband and a parent and a human being at some location in some niche of the marketplace if a Power greater than he would quell Obama the man's gigantic vanity, ego and pride. Liberty will eliminate worship of the potus and all it's lackeys and sociopathic goons. My President, for example, is the Commander-in-chief of, among other things, the rotation of the earth on its axis. I support the Incumbent. That's a lot of liberty for this old skudder. Sam
  • Samarami's picture
    Samarami 5 years 38 weeks ago Web link Westernerd
    "...It would seem both alternatives are unfair, from a standpoint of religious freedom—either the state is violating the religious liberty of certain groups that wish to partake in certain activities (or refrain from certain activities) as a matter of conscience, or it is carving loopholes for such groups while denying the rights of others to engage in the same conduct. To take another example, if a conscientious objector is free not to be forced to serve in war on religious grounds—which he should be—why cannot a conscientious objector have secular or other ideological reasons for not going to war?..." (emphasis mine -- sam) Much as I enjoy Gregory's insight and style in general, I believe he and many (if not most) "libertarian" writers tend to commit one mortal error: they subconsciously absolve the perpetrators of crimes and the obstacles to freedom that those same libertarian writers outline in their otherwise excellent essays. At the same time they reinforce legitimacy of "the state" -- so necessary for those sociopaths bent upon expanding government power and controlling individual freedom. The "state" is not violating religious liberty. The State is the violation of religious liberty. Agents of the state are violating religious and a whole host of other liberties. You might think this trivial, but I'm convinced it is at the heart and core of why the hundreds of Anthony Gregory's of libertarianism cannot finally and totally divorce themselves from governmentalist ideology. "John Smith, US Congressman, and his colleagues who voted "aye" in support of this religious exemption have personally created this unfairness..." Name individual trigger people -- don't let them hide under the mantle of the abstract "state" to continue their aggressions. Sam
  • AtlasAikido's picture
    AtlasAikido 5 years 38 weeks ago Page Alex Schroeder
    The free market is organized by individual people voluntarily without compulsion acting in their own self-best interest. That is what humans do. There is no system. A grocery store is not run using the State's command control coercion nor need it! Nor need any other field! --There is *No We*: Challenge the Premise.-- http://zerogov.com/?p=2334 There Is a difference between those who seek to build a system, and those who only seek to build! If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.~ Thomas Pynchon I don't discount that the troll vanished and arrived here from Troll Island--drivel intact--at about the same time attention and criticism of Ron Paul, Austrian economics and libertarians surfaced. http://www.strike-the-root.com/liberty-stability#comment-5003
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 5 years 38 weeks ago Page Alex Schroeder
    You lie again, Atlas. DDT was never banned for Malaria prevention, and is still used for it today. Check your premises. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_Spring
  • AtlasAikido's picture
    AtlasAikido 5 years 38 weeks ago Page Alex Schroeder
    Like Regina Rabinovich the troll blames the remnant free market and ignores "knowledge" (see Suverans2 post) the very same that led us to life saving technology (such as DDT) and city-agriculture (that sustains us)! Like Regina Rabinovich it--the troll--could be using its *scientific empirical "knowledge"* and so-called "Randroid" expertise trolling those actually responsible for this tragedy but it is happier ignoring the facts and smearing this free market site. Ignoring what has been going on since the late 60's AND that DDT has been *scientifically and empirically* proven as safe for humans. From the time she--Regina Rabonovich--majored in "anthropology"-- at the University of Iowa, she wanted to be a change agent yet the points addressed in the post above were ignored. Much like the troll response: "I don't ignore any facts. If you have any, name them". Indeed the facts have been named and indeed the facts are being ignored. Make no mistake dear reader what we have here is the equivalent to Regina Rabinovich Make no mistake here what we have here is a troll = Tribal Primitivism Make no mistake here what we have here is another Rachel Carlson... * Rachel Carson's fable about the alleged dangers of pesticides, the 1962 book, Silent Spring, became a classic of the environmental movement despite the fact that it was a work of fiction. The book had a powerful influence, however, and governments throughout the world banned DDT and other pesticides beginning in the early 1970s. This ban has led to the death of literally millions of people in the Third World from malaria. *It has also caused numerous crop disasters as voracious insects that were once killed off with DDT are no longer, and substitutes are often unaffordable in Third World countries*. Emphasis Added. In 1970, shortly before DDT was banned, the National Academy of Sciences determined that DDT had saved 500 million lives over the previous three decades by eradicating malaria-carrying mosquitoes. DDT was banned by the U.S. government in the early 1970s despite the fact that no science was presented that it had the effects that Carson and the environmental movement claimed it had. Even if the National Academy of Sciences estimate of lives saved by DDT is off by a multiple of two, Rachel Carson and her crusade against the pesticide would still be responsible for more human deaths than most of the worst tyrants in world history. [4] We are told that we have not provided any facts worthy of consideration. We are overruled by a troll. And it commands us to cleave to its backward looking field of study and backward thinking ways.
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 5 years 38 weeks ago Page Alex Schroeder
    The State itself is a technology ("a system of organization" [wiki]) which is necessary to orchestrating agricultural city-Statism (civilization.) It took much knowledge and thinking of "Big Men" (emergent elite) to create it. Oops, you didn't think of that, did ya? You're against the foundational Mass Society organization technology underlying all civilization.
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 5 years 38 weeks ago Page Alex Schroeder
    I'm neither a primitivist nor a techno-utopian. I think both positions are simple-minded.. TechJudge Ran Prieur http://www.ranprieur.com/tech.html Not all primitivists are against technology in and of itself; only some. Many primitivists hold a view that technology is ambiguous. Technology is found among all “primitive” peoples to one extent or another, so obviously there is some sustainable level of techology. 5 Common Objections to Primitivism, and Why They’re Wrong Jason Godesky | 26 October 2005 http://www.rewild.info/anthropik/2005/10/5-common-objections-to-primitiv...
  • Suverans2's picture
    Suverans2 5 years 38 weeks ago Page Alex Schroeder
    "The central tenet of primitivism, anarcho-primitivism and anti-civilisationism is the abolition of technology." ~ libcom.org One doesn't have to score in the 98th percentile or higher, (thank goodness), to realize that it's not "technology", or even "agricultural city-statism (civilization)", that is the cause of all Mankind's/Earth's woes. It is "knowledge"!! It is "knowledge" that brought man out of the stone-aged hunter/gather lifestyle; it is "knowledge" that brought us "technology" and "agricultural city-statism (civilization)"! It is, therefore, "knowledge" that should be vehemently, mercilessly, and repeatedly, and repeatedly, and repeatedly, and repeatedly, and repeatedly, and repeatedly, and repeatedly, and repeatedly, and repeatedly, attacked, for without "knowledge" there would be no "technology" and no "agricultural city-statism (civilization). I perceive that those who make up the ruling elite are doing their part to crush "knowledge". This is called "dumbing down*". But, you "primitivists" need to do your part. "DOWN WITH KNOWLEDGE!!!" "DOWN WITH KNOWLEDGE!!!" "DOWN WITH KNOWLEDGE!!!" ...should be your new mantra. Repeat it loudly and endlessly, and endlessly, and endlessly, and endlessly, and endlessly, and endlessly, and endlessly...on everyone else's websites...because, if you were to start your own website, virtually no one would visit it. _________________________________________________________________ *Definition: Dumbing down is a term used to refer to the hiding of natural intellectual abililities. [See, it's already working. This definer misspelled "abilities".]
  • Suverans2's picture
    Suverans2 5 years 38 weeks ago Page Alex Schroeder
    Here, for your entertainment is a more humorous look at "dumbing down".
  • Jim Davies's picture
    Jim Davies 5 years 38 weeks ago
    Liberty Stability
    Page Jim Davies
    Perhaps it did, Atlas Aikido, but my impression of the Troll Island family is that they are powerful but harmless. They do wear funny pointed headgear, or so it's widely rumored, but their mischief-making is just a sport. They are not known as drivelers, but do have some mysterious powers. For example, you may have noticed that the island is dark, in the photo at http://www.theanarchistalternative.info/zgb/BB2.JPG - some may attribute that to a passing cloud but no! - those trolls have the ability to take a perfectly clear, bright scene and bring darkness and confusion at an instant's notice; in this case, just as my finger squeezed the camera shutter. There's another example at http://theanarchistalternative.info/zgb/TS2.JPG - which shows a rock the size of a minivan, balanced delicately on three small stones in the middle of a forest not far from Troll Island. It's _possible_ that in some ancient era humans placed it there, but it would have been a major feat of engineering for no evident purpose; all the natives in those parts call it the "Troll Stone" and take it as proof that trolls exist. Why did they do it? - just to show they could.
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 5 years 38 weeks ago Page Alex Schroeder
    Yours is an agricultural city-statism (civilization) agenda, not mine. I don't ignore any facts. If you have any, name them.
  • AtlasAikido's picture
    AtlasAikido 5 years 38 weeks ago Page Alex Schroeder
    This is a free market site! Trying to re-enforce what amounts to the Statist Economic agendas of Keynes, Krugman, Friedman and positivists, sanctions emboldens and feeds politicians and their witnessed destruction--as pointed out in Rand's "Atlas Shrugged" and Mises, Thoreau's works! The truth is that there was NO resistance developed to DDT—at least not by insects. However, *politicians* AND trolls are remarkably adept at developing resistance to truth and to the suffering of the *HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS* of new malaria victims created by *political bans* on the use of DDT. Harker's article has a side column featuring *Regina Rabinovich*. She writes: * "Pharmaceutical and biotech companies have little incentive to develop products against malaria, a classic example of market failure. This is tragic in the light of findings that the development of a preventive vaccine is technically feasible." * She completely ignores the historic role of DDT's near eradication of malaria, and her statement itself is an example of the *failure of the politically motivated and government funded education system*, NOT OF THE FREE MARKET where she and trolls attempt to place the blame. Instead it is "a classic example of" *political meddling in a free market*—and at a horrendous cost in human lives *which even exceeds that of wars between governments during the 20th Century*. Emphasis added. When considering the number of human deaths involved, her blackout of the role of DDT is obscene!! The troll ignores the role of Thoreau, Mises, Rand, The Austrian School and Libertarianism as it pertains to the Free Market AND attempts to dis-credit this agorist/anarchist site with statist equivalent non-sequiters just like Regina Rabinovich! It--the troll--could do something that is properly the purview of its scientific empirical data training as pointed out in the above prior posts. But it is happier ignoring these facts and placing blame where it does not belong just like Regina Rabinovich.
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 5 years 38 weeks ago Page Alex Schroeder
    It's your dear leader who justifies Genocide. And 800,000 children dying a year from starvation. To feed and clothe the hierarchical elite capitalist elite. You'll deny guilt; psychopaths to that sort of thing.
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 5 years 38 weeks ago Page Alex Schroeder
    Moral high horse; you recognize who holds the moral high ground. Ride on, gambol about plain and forest, gathering and hunting. If you don't think you'd fall off. Otherwise, you're pretty worthless. Hate to bring meritocracy into it, but you ain't offering much but preacher's words. Feel as worthless as a welfare mother now, Atlas? You don't think they're worth anything. (In egalitarian Non-State society, there's a place to fit for everybody. Just like anthropologists observe amongst the few Non-State societies untrammeled by city-Statists like you.)
  • AtlasAikido's picture
    AtlasAikido 5 years 38 weeks ago Page Alex Schroeder
    Someone here IS by all definitions *actually wasting* their talents and barking up the wrong tree attributing to this free market site non-sequiters (amongst other things). According its very own proselytizing regarding scientific empirical data: Here is a REAL TRAGEDY that it should be working on given its beliefs--see threads--instead of mis-allocating its science training that ape Keynes, Krugman, Friedman, monism and positivists and thereby serving politicians. There are 800,000 unnecessary dead children every year not counting adults and deformed children since the late 60's. DDT Ban & Malaria: An Unnecessary Tragedy, INDEED!! In 1948, Dr. Paul H. Muller of Switzerland was awarded the Nobel Prize in Medicine because of the medical importance of DDT. In Sri Lanka in 1948, before using DDT, there were 2.8 million cases of malaria. By 1963, because of the use of DDT, there were ONLY 17 (SEVENTEEN) CASES OF MALARIA!! DDT has never harmed a single human being. Humans can and have eaten DDT with no ill effects. *But politicians, in spite of empirical and scientific proof of its safety and benefits*, banned it in the mid 1960s. By 1969, cases in Sri Lanka reach 2.5 million again. Related comment: http://www.strike-the-root.com/bureaucratization-of-airport-security#com...
  • AtlasAikido's picture
    AtlasAikido 5 years 38 weeks ago Page Alex Schroeder
    Getting off its moral high horse and preaching to issues and attributing to this site things that have nothing to do with this site --which is free market--is really an attempt "to have its agenda and make us eat it" AND at the expense of a valid application of its very own empirical data and teachings! Talk about being turned around! See links for tie back comments: http://www.strike-the-root.com/bureaucratization-of-airport-security#com... http://www.strike-the-root.com/bureaucratization-of-airport-security#com... "Times up" indeed. And that "observation" including links, IS hardly "silly", it IS gut wrenchingly TRAGIC: Every second it wastes here with irrelevant non-sequtiers is a second gone that it could have been doing something that actually *IS a proper use of empirical science* findings regarding DDT AND failing to act on that is the cause 3200 children dying a day since the 1960's!!
  • AtlasAikido's picture
    AtlasAikido 5 years 38 weeks ago Page Alex Schroeder
    By your definition you are here to show up and stick it to The Austrian School and Libertarianism, Rand, Mises etc whilst furthering your cause but you are ACTUALLY wasting your resources. When they should be spent saving the 800,000 children that will indeed die unnecessarily this year (apparently/perhaps since the 60's you have been unaware of this). Multiply that out. If you are so concerned about Rand justifying/being a conveyor belt of genocide and apparently NOT the POLS and their Lincoln like Mercantilism agenda with Sherman and Grant like armies genocide of races I would think that this should be something YOU would want to do something about by your own We-ism teachings! A worthy cause. 800,000 children that won't die this year if you start trolling the powers that be. And the data is empirically valid regarding the issues! DDT is safe! And you would be making people aware of the situation. And you would be taking on the Politicians cut from the very same cloth of those that took out your brothers and which the Austrian School and Libertarianism are showing up for what they are--sociopaths. See Lewrockwell.com
  • WhiteIndian's picture
    WhiteIndian 5 years 38 weeks ago Page Alex Schroeder
    you said • "much rides on the education part" That's what the sacred pederast the Apostle Paul thought. If you haven't read Philemon 1:9-11, you won't know what I meant by the antecedent to "apostle." You're not much different to Paul. you said • "quickly reach critical mass" Schnell! Schnell! English subtitles: "Quickly! Quickly!" I got that from a black and white movie made in, quite strangely, 1993. (Starring Liam Neeson and Ben Kingsley.) You said • "I can only fall back to Harry Browne and the Covenant of Unanimous Consent--What I control myself." Trust in HayZeus. Or start thinking outside of MisesGospel, etal. Just for the weekend. THERE IS NO SAVIOR, ANYWHERE.